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'I Will Leave If I Lose'

WHO IS THE REAL HUN SEN - the ruthless strongman or the born-again democrat?

After his decisive strike last July to outmaneuver his onetime co-premier, Prince Norodom Ranariddh, the dark side seemed to prevail. But now, nearly a year later, Hun Sen is making a big effort to be kinder and gentler. That's how he chiefly came across during a May 29 interview with Special Correspondent Dominic Faulder at his home outside Phnom Penh. While Hun Sen, 46, may have mellowed lately, underneath, you can still detect the steel.

Excerpts from the two-hour conversation:
ASIAWEEK: Is the election on track?

HUN SEN: It will be carried out as scheduled. The law says the election will be held on Sunday, July 26. Some people had the idea of postponing it for one or two months, but I don't think they have any support. The law [requires] the Assembly to be dissolved after [its term's] expiry [in September]. It does not require the government to be dissolved. If they do not want the election and the Assembly dissolves, the government will continue its work until it finds a time to hold the election.

ASIAWEEK: If the government continued after the National Assembly expired, what would it have as a legislature?

HUN SEN: We would be working with the King. Everything would be issued or defined by royal decree. Without the Assembly, we would be in great difficulty, in a constitutional crisis. We need the national budget, laws to be adopted by the National Assembly. Only the election can resolve all the problems.

ASIAWEEK: The Constitutional Council, which decides what is legal and constitutional, then becomes very important. It has been alleged that this council is two-thirds CPP, and critics say it is a tool of your party. Is that fair?

HUN SEN: Those people all say the National Election Committee is also pro-CPP, and they say the Constitutional Council is also pro-CPP. I don't want to talk about the people who work [in them], but about the law itself. Does the law allow anything to be pro-CPP? If the law does not allow [any bias], one has to abide by the law. For myself, I would not be scared by anyone coming from anywhere because we have to concentrate on the law. If the law says it is white, we cannot interpret it as black.

ASIAWEEK: You obviously want to win the election, but what else, from your point of view, would be a successful result?
HUN SEN: For me, if the elections are free, fair and just, and without violence, that would be a successful election. The result would be acceptable to all. I feel that is possible - if we compare it to [the first election in] 1993, two months before, the killings had already started. So far, nobody has been killed for political reasons.

ASIAWEEK: People are worried about intimidation.
HUN SEN: Being intimidated is their problem. If you travel by plane, you sometimes feel it might crash. It you travel by car, you may be afraid of having an accident. Some people sleeping might feel they have high blood pressure that will cause death to them. Worries sometimes are good, because they help those people to get prepared and be cautious.

ASIAWEEK: When you dream at night, what is your perfect election result?
HUN SEN: Even though I have been in [cabinet since 1981], I have never dreamed of being minister, deputy prime minister or prime minister. Most of my dreams are all about the past, about the Pol Pot regime. Sometimes I cry out and my wife has to wake me up. Even though I am in a good position, I have never been fortunate enough to dream about having this or that number of seats. Three weeks before the death of my mother, I had a strange dream. I even told the King and the Queen about my dream. I never saw the mother of the King, but I dreamt she came to live in my house and in the same room with me. It's very strange that I never knew her but dreamt of her. It could be [something] that led to the death of my mother. When I told the King about this, he said that it might [have been] time for my own mother to leave. That is the only strange dream I have had.

ASIAWEEK: If we look back, you first became prime minister when Vietnam was involved in Cambodia. In the 1993 election, you weren't the first-placed candidate for prime minister. Then there was last July's de facto coup. So is establishing legitimacy through this election your top priority?

HUN SEN: Everyone needs elections. The appointment of the prime minister by the CPP is conditional on the CPP winning the election. If the CPP loses, it is prepared to transfer power smoothly to the winning party and then study how to correct itself and do better in the next election. If the CPP wins the election, it will be a [victory] given by the people.

ASIAWEEK: So if you lose, you go?

HUN SEN: Yes, that's it. I will leave after transferring power peacefully. Then I would have more time to play golf. I would be concerned only to go to the National Assembly for meetings. I can play golf and chess or compose songs, write books.
ASIAWEEK: When you play chess, you play to win.

HUN SEN: It's true everyone wants to win, but what should we do if we lose? Last night, I played three rounds of chess with my partner, who had just left hospital. He had discovered a new method and, with this, he killed me one time, when I still had a lot of my followers [pieces]. After leaving hospital, he had better knowledge of chess. I had planned to kill him, but he killed me. The election could be this way too. We are preparing to win, but there is also the opportunity to lose. We prepare for both cases. If we lose, we will transfer power smoothly without anyone getting killed. If we win, we will form a coalition government.

ASIAWEEK: You want to be seen to win fairly. You want credibility, international recognition. Two issues arise at the moment. One is the question of media access. The opposition say they don't have it. Officially, Prince Ranariddh is not even here according to Khmer television. The second issue is observers.

HUN SEN: The time to observe whether there is equal access to the media is from June 25 to July 24, the campaign period. If by that time, some parties have more time on the air, others less time, that is not fair. But it's not yet time to say that. Right now in the media, they just broadcast about the King and those in power. In other countries, they show the activities of the prime minister and the ministers, not of political parties. During the period of mourning my mother's death, I met about half a million people who are CPP members. Did they broadcast that through TV? They showed [me] just when I acted as a prime minister. So tell those people to try their best to be prime minister or ministers, and they will be shown on TV.

ASIAWEEK: And observers?

HUN SEN: The more the better. We will provide them full access to go anywhere they wish. We want these people to see everything with their own eyes. This way we avoid being criticized for irregularities.

ASIAWEEK: You once spoke about the Khmer Rouge as fish in the water, and that you would not decide how to cook them until you had caught them. How many fish have been caught?

HUN SEN: They are coming to an end now and it's a problem collecting all the fish. I don't think [Khmer Rouge leaders] Ta Mok, Pol Pot, Nuon Chea or Khieu Samphan ever thought there would be a time like today. On May 2 I made a declaration that it was better to have the trial after the election. Ta Mok is the main target of our pursuit. We cannot provide amnesty to some leaders. There is no need to request amnesty for people like Ta Mok, Pol Pot, Nuon Chea or Khieu Samphan.

ASIAWEEK: Have you ever met Nuon Chea, Pol Pot's longtime deputy?

HUN SEN: Never. These people - Nuon Chea, Ta Mok and Pol Pot - I have never met.
ASIAWEEK: You keep mentioning Pol Pot. Do you seriously think he is still alive?

HUN SEN: Even though I have information here and there, I have not made a conclusion about his death yet. On this question, we must be cautious on two points. When one refers to Pol Pot, that does not mean the individual. It rather means the political and military organization of Pol Pot, whether the organization has come to an end or not. The second thing is that the death of Pol Pot has come four times already, and it seems the last time carried many secrets.

ASIAWEEK: Do you believe the man who died, who looked like Pol Pot, was murdered?

HUN SEN: A point of suspicion is that Pol Pot had white hair when he was alive, but when he was dead his hair was black. The death of Pol Pot is still within a secret. If it is really his death, it was not really by heart attack because this man had undergone a life of many difficulties and fears. It could not be by heart attack. It's still a secret that we cannot investigate now.

ASIAWEEK: What kind of tribunal would you want to see set up in order to investigate the Khmer Rouge regime?

HUN SEN: I would like the tribunal to be international. Even though the trial would be held in Cambodia, the court should be composed of international judges because genocide is an issue of the world. The convention on condemning and preventing genocide is an international treaty. To me, any type of trial should be international.

ASIAWEEK: So you will work with the U.N.'s overseer for human rights in Cambodia, Thomas Hammarberg, on this issue?
HUN SEN: That's right. Mr. Hammarberg raised three options for me. The first option is for the court for Bosnia to increase its mandate to cover the genocide of Pol Pot as well. The second option is to set up the court in Cambodia. The third option is to send his experts to work with the Cambodian experts and then set up a master plan, and submit it for the decision of the government of Cambodia and for the United Nations. I accepted with him the third option. He will send his experts to work with our experts.

ASIAWEEK: After the election, when do you expect Cambodia to enter ASEAN?

HUN SEN: If they decide tomorrow, we will join tomorrow - the sooner the better.
ASIAWEEK: We have seen something extraordinary in the region lately - the fall of Indonesia's Suharto. What lessons do you draw from that?

HUN SEN: There is [no alternative to] giving power to the people. Weapons, prisons, handcuffs are only short-term solutions. No leader can survive without the support of the people. Right now, I would prefer to leave and release myself from some of the work, but not so as to give the difficulties to the people who replace me. If talking about popularity, I feel that if I left the position I would be more popular. The people who wish me to be in power would feel regret, and the others would be convinced that Hun Sen is not just a person who wants power.